More Virtual Cards (Cruel Caradhras, take II)

[DáinIronfoot]

Yeah yeah, but I'd still rather that title be used and the context be changed than use the title "Some Who Resisted" as a follower. That's like having "Some Who Ride Ponies" as a follower.

[Thranduil]

Yeah yeah, but I'd still rather that title be used and the context be changed than use the title "Some Who Resisted" as a follower. That's like having "Some Who Ride Ponies" as a follower.

My problem is that I've also got to take into account pictures, and a big statue of Isildur on a follower card doesn't look great! At least Some Who Resisted has some people in the background!

Thranduil

[DáinIronfoot]

Just switch the pictures around then! If you're revising the text anyway, I would think you could certainly "revise" the pictures a bit to go along with it.

[lem0nhead]

Yeah yeah, but I'd still rather that title be used and the context be changed than use the title "Some Who Resisted" as a follower. That's like having "Some Who Ride Ponies" as a follower.

First of thats hilarious.  Dain! Gotta fit that in my sig somehow....

Are you suggesting all cards should require no effort to play and making a "couple of card" tactical focus is pointless? Doesnt that mean you want all cards to be splashable and easy to play?

I understand with cards such as weight of legacy etc... But thats because you dont know what youre facing. Here you know youre playing the shards and it isnt too much to use that to get a card or 2 out.

No; he didn't say that cards should never require to spot other cards, he said that cards that reference specific card titles restrict deck-building.

Again i disagree, it doesnt restrict deck building it focuses it. They go into a specific deck and are great because although they need special requirements theyre great once theyre out. Not every card should be designed to go in every deck.

Gondor Bowmen (V)
Follower
Aid - .
Bearer must be a Man.
Archery: Exert bearer twice to add +2 to the fellowship archery total. Transfer this follower to your support area.
3 V 41

Hmmm good but painful.

Some Who Resisted (V)
Follower
Str: +1
Aid - remove a token.
Respone: If bearer is about to take a wound in a skirmish, transfer this follower to your support area and add to prevent that wound.
"'In the South the realm of Gondor long endured; and for a while its splendour grew…'"
3 V 45

LOL kudos for the clever naming/card type idea, but i am with Dain it is a bit daft even if its interesting. Need an s in response. Dont need the add 2 bit its fine anyway.

Blood of Númenor (V)
Condition • Support Area
Tale.
Skirmish: Remove a card in your discard pile from the game to make an unique companion strength +1.
Regroup: Remove this condition from the game to remove .
"'I do not know what strength is in my blood, but I swear to you - I will not let the White City fall…'"
2 V 31

The skirmish ability seems very good, maybe the card should require to play exert a gondor man.

[Thranduil]

And now we come to the final theme which focuses around Aragorn and Arwen and the concept of removing cards from the game.

• The Choice of Lúthien (V)
Condition • Support Area
Tale.
Response: If a Man is about to be killed in a skirmish, remove an Elf from the game to prevent that and cancel the skirmish (and remove all wounds from that Man if he is Aragorn or if that Elf is Arwen). Then remove this condition from the game.
"'But she chose mortality, and to die from the world so that she might follow him; and it is sung that they met again beyond the Sundering Seas…'"
1 V 100

Beren and Lúthien (V)
Condition • Support Area
Tale.
Maneuver: Remove 2 cards in your discard pile from the game to heal Arwen or Aragorn.
Skirmish: Remove 2 cards in your discard pile from the game to make a minion skirmishing Arwen or Aragorn strength -2.
At the start of the regroup phase, exert Arwen and Aragorn, or remove this condition from the game.
"'Tinúviel! Tinúviel! / He called her by her elvish name; / And there she halted listening.'"
3 V 9

Arwen's Fate (V)
Event • Maneuver
Tale.
Spot Aragorn and Arwen to choose your or card which has been removed from the game and shuffle it into your draw deck. Then remove this event from the game.
1 V 93

[lem0nhead]

• The Choice of Lúthien (V)
Condition • Support Area
Tale.
Response: If a Man is about to be killed in a skirmish, remove an Elf from the game to prevent that and cancel the skirmish (and remove all wounds from that Man if he is Aragorn). Then remove this condition from the game.
"'But she chose mortality, and to die from the world so that she might follow him; and it is sung that they met again beyond the Sundering Seas…'"
1 V 100

Erm ok, bit difficult to balance that without playtesting.

Beren and Lúthien (V)
Condition • Support Area
Tale.
Maneuver: Remove an card in your discard pile from the game to heal Arwen or Aragorn.
Skirmish: Remove a card in your discard pile from the game to make a minion skirmishing Arwen or Aragorn strength -2.
At the start of the regroup phase, exert Arwen and Aragorn, or remove this condition from the game.
"'Tinúviel! Tinúviel! / He called her by her elvish name; / And there she halted listening.'"
3 V 9

IMHO its is OP. This make them both virtually indestructible tanks.

Arwen's Fate (V)
Event • Maneuver
Tale.
Spot Aragorn and Arwen to choose your or card which has been removed from the game and shuffle it into your draw deck. Then remove this event from the game.
1 V 93

I dont like D's idea of removing stuff from the game anyway, and as i have pointed out before if theyre removed from the game then that it theyre gone. Shouldnt mess with them, spot them or use them as they are not in the game anymore. Or else its just another discard pile to arse about with.

[Thranduil]

as i have pointed out before if theyre removed from the game then that it theyre gone. Shouldnt mess with them, spot them or use them as they are not in the game anymore. Or else its just another discard pile to arse about with.

This is the only way of doing it; only works with Arwen and Aragorn and the event is removed immediately afterwards so the maximum you could do it is only ever 4 times.

Thranduil

[lem0nhead]

That only makes it marginally better though. Its "removed from the game", the phrase says it all, it should effectively remove the card from the room ur playing in the house youre in etc... Its gone no longer in the game so it shouldnt be used or spotted, it ceases to exist for the purposes of the game the moment its removed.

Thats where im coming from sorry, if others disagree fair enough, it just seems a pointless rule if you can bypass it.

[DáinIronfoot]

First off, I thought of a very easy way to avoid this removing from the game stuff: stacking! Currently, the only card that allows stacking on it is the original The Shards of Narsil, and there are NO cards that allow it. So simply stack instead of removing from the game, and then your new Arwen's Fate will work much more smoothly.

I'll suggest rewrites as I review these to work with a stacking theme. Here goes....

• The Choice of Lúthien (V)
Condition • Support Area
Tale.
Response: If a Man is about to be killed in a skirmish, remove an Elf from the game to prevent that and cancel the skirmish (and remove all wounds from that Man if he is Aragorn). Then remove this condition from the game.
"'But she chose mortality, and to die from the world so that she might follow him; and it is sung that they met again beyond the Sundering Seas…'"
1 V 100

•The Choice of Lúthien (V)
Condition • Support Area
Tale.
Response: If a Man is about to be killed in a skirmish, stack an Elf here to prevent that and cancel that Man's skirmish (and remove all wounds from that Man if that Man is Aragorn or that Elf is Arwen).
"'But she chose mortality, and to die from the world so that she might follow him; and it is sung that they met again beyond the Sundering Seas…'"

Rewrite on this one's a little clumsy, I admit. But since it requires essentially discarding an Elf, I think it's okay that it's repeatable. Note that I added a little bonus for discarding Arwen as well.

Beren and Lúthien (V)
Condition • Support Area
Tale.
Maneuver: Remove 2 cards in your discard pile from the game to heal Arwen or Aragorn.
Skirmish: Remove a card in your discard pile from the game to make a minion skirmishing Arwen or Aragorn strength -1.
At the start of the regroup phase, exert Arwen and Aragorn, or remove this condition from the game.
"'Tinúviel! Tinúviel! / He called her by her elvish name; / And there she halted listening.'"
3 V 9

Beren and Lúthien (V)
Condition • Support Area
Tale.
Maneuver: Stack 2 cards from your discard pile here to heal Arwen or Aragorn.
Skirmish: Stack 2 cards from your discard pile here to make a minion skirmishing Arwen or Aragorn strength -2.
At the start of the regroup phase, exert Arwen or Aragorn or discard this condition.
"'Tinúviel! Tinúviel! / He called her by her elvish name; / And there she halted listening.'"
3 V 9

Much smoother rewrite in this case. Yes, there are other cards that could pull this back from discard, making it slightly less of an Aragorn/Arwen-exclusive thing, but I agree with lem0n: you shouldn't be messing with cards that are removed from the game.

Arwen's Fate (V)
Event • Maneuver
Tale.
Spot Aragorn and Arwen to choose your or card which has been removed from the game and shuffle it into your draw deck. Then remove this event from the game.
1 V 93

Arwen's Fate (V)
Event • Maneuver
Tale.
Spot Aragorn and Arwen to shuffle a card stacked on your or condition into your draw deck. You may then stack this card on a or condition that has a card already stacked on it.
1 V 93

Again, pretty easy to rewrite this one for stacking.

Obviously, you don't HAVE to listen to lem0n, me, or anyone else. But I think that stuff removed from the game is just that: REMOVED from the game. No more bringing it back in. I'd rather you create a new pile called "Aragorn and Arwen's Condo" and move stuff there then pull it back from being REMOVED from the game. But it's your call, of course. Just my opinion, that's all.

[Thranduil]

I didn't just put all the LOTR mechanics in a hat and said: "Hmm.... I wonder which strategy I should make for Aragorn and Arwen..." and picked out "Removing from the game" at random!

I chose removing from the game as a reflection of the history and reality of two of the most important people in the history of Middle-Earth. The reason Arwen's Fate does what it does is because the unique position of Aragorn and Arwen brought back into the world ideas and situations not seen since the First Age. In their tale, there's great sacrifice and things lost forever (from the wonders of Númenor to the Elves of Beleriand) but still they recover some of what was lost and reunite the kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor. The reason Arwen's Fate has such an extraordinary ability is because her fate was that extraordinary.

So I appreciate all your suggestions on this, but I'd like to stick with what I've got!

Given that, are there any issues of balance that need to be sorted out?

Thranduil

[DáinIronfoot]

Fair enough. I wasn't thinking you chose it at random, but the idea of essentially creating a "removed from the game pile" just doesn't sit right with me.

That all being said, they seem balanced to me. I would still prefer your revised Choice of Lúthien have the extra benefit from Arwen that I plugged into my suggested rewrite. Not necessary by any means, but I think tying her in like you tied Aragorn in would be a nice touch.

[Thranduil]

I think that about wraps up the culture.

And now I'm feeling particularly evil, so I feel like some Shadow cards are in order (yes, I can in fact design virtual Shadow cards! )

Let's first look at cards that have already been made for this culture:

No Ordinary Storm (V)
Event • Shadow
Weather.
Choose one: reveal 2 weather cards from hand to play Saruman from your draw deck or discard pile; or discard X weather cards from hand and exert Saruman to exert X companions.
"'This is the work of Saruman!'"
1 V 130

That one was Anvar's way back towards the beginning of the contest.

Can You Protect Me From Yourself? (V)
Event • Assignment
Spot an minion and a companion to prevent that companion being assigned to a skirmish until the regroup phase. The Free Peoples player may exert that companion to prevent this.
"'Where is the Ring?'"
3 V 50

And that one was also Anvar's, but much later in the contest.

• Saruman, Servant of the Eye (V)
Minion • Wizard
Str: 8
Vit: 4
Sit: 4
Saruman may not take wounds during the archery phase and may not be assigned to a skirmish.
Uruk-hai are strength +1 for each site you control (limit +3).
Each time an Uruk-hai wins a skirmish you may heal Saruman.
Skirmish: Exert Saruman twice to take control of a site.
"Hunt them down. Do not stop until they are found. You do not know pain, you do not know fear. You will taste man-flesh."
3 V 69

This is NK's, which I swapped Keeper of Isengard for because I had a different text I wanted to use on him! And I think Servant of the Eye represents this guy quite well anyway.

Now for some new cards:

• Saruman, Keeper of Isengard (V)
Minion • Wizard
Str: 8
Vit: 4
Sit: 4
Saruman may not take wounds during the archery phase and may not be assigned to a skirmish.
When you play Saruman, you may play an condition from your discard pile.
Regroup: Spot another minion to return Saruman to your hand.
3 V 68

This is basically a toolbox Saruman which you can throw in decks to safeguard your conditions, and he should be recurring quite frequently as well which was always one of the problems with Saruman. You'll also see that there are going to be a lot of conditions around.

And here is also another funky trick which you can use Saruman for:

Saruman's Power (V)
Event • Shadow
Spell.
Spot Saruman (or exert an minion) to take into hand an event or condition from your draw deck.
1 V 136

And what happens if you somehow don't have Saruman in play?

Saruman's Reach (V)
Condition • Support Area
To play, spot Saruman (or 3 , or minions).
Saruman may be spotted.
Response: If your Shadow card is about to exert Saruman as a cost, discard this condition to pay that cost instead.
1 V 137

[lem0nhead]

• Saruman, Servant of the Eye (V)
Minion • Wizard
Str: 8
Vit: 4
Sit: 4
Saruman may not take wounds during the archery phase and may not be assigned to a skirmish.
Uruk-hai are strength +1 for each site you control (limit +3).
Each time an Uruk-hai wins a skirmish you may heal Saruman.
Skirmish: Exert Saruman twice to take control of a site.
"Hunt them down. Do not stop until they are found. You do not know pain, you do not know fear. You will taste man-flesh."
3 V 69

Needs to be phrased wounds cannot be assigned to saruman during the archery phase or you can assing all the wounds to him but he takes none of them as they are effectively prevented. Apart from that my review stands as last time i voted him 1st place. Cool!

• Saruman, Keeper of Isengard (V)
Minion • Wizard
Str: 8
Vit: 4
Sit: 4
Saruman may not take wounds during the archery phase and may not be assigned to a skirmish.
When you play Saruman, you may play an condition from your discard pile.
Regroup: Spot another minion to return Saruman to your hand.
3 V 68

Useless really, not worth having, you might as well make him able to skirmish to make him less UP.

Saruman's Power (V)
Event • Shadow
Spell.
Spot Saruman (or exert an minion) to search through your draw deck for an event or condition and place it in your hand.
1 V 136

You dont need the to search bit. You can just "take into hand" one of those cards.

Saruman's Reach (V)
Condition • Support Area
To play, spot Saruman (or 3 , or minions).
Saruman may be spotted.
Response: If your Shadow card is about to exert Saruman as a cost, discard this condition to pay that cost instead.
1 V 137

The action needs to be rephrased like strength of spirit; "to place no token for that exertion". Not sure if i like the spotting bit though. See what others say.

[Thranduil]

The action needs to be rephrased like strength of spirit; "to place no token for that exertion". Not sure if i like the spotting bit though. See what others say.[/b]

No, the point is that you can discard the condition to exert Saruman without Saruman being there!

Thranduil

[lem0nhead]

Hmm ok missed that, in that case it still needs reworking as you could never play a card that says exert saruman if saruman isnt on the table, so this action is rendered irrelevant. I.e. There will never be a time when " a card IS ABOUT TO exert saruman" cos he's not there to exert so the card can never be initiated.

Needs something like if a card requires you to exert saruman, discard this condition to pay the cost and use the card.... and then you get the effect etc...