Weird theoretical question

[MR. Lurtzy]

Ithilien blade discards a minion during the manuever phase. My question is, if there is a card that prevents a minion from being spotted during the manuever phase, can Ithilien blade still discard that minion (provided that minion is roaming)?

[Elrohir]

  What a strange situation

Ithilien Blade does not say, that you have to spot a minion. I would say yes, you can discard. But how would you be able, to prevent a minion from being spotted?

[MD85]

Can you please tell us the card that prevents spotting during the manuever phase?

(Not that I have clue to the answer of your question, but I'd like to know which card you're referring too).



EDIT: If 'theoretical' means there is no card that prevents spotting... What is the point of your question?

[MR. Lurtzy]

No, I don't think the card exists, this question has more to do with dream cards.

[Kev-La]

I would say that a roaming minion has to be in play in order to be considered roaming. If it is in play, it can be spotted, unless another active (dream?) card overrules this by stating something like "Minions may not be spotted". However, since Ithilien Blade's ability does not require the spotting of a minion, it would be unaffected by such a card.

[MR. Lurtzy]

Doesn't picking a minion to be discarded, in and of itself, mean the minion must be "there" in the first place? When it can't be spotted, it's as if it isn't there.

[Kev-La]

Doesn't picking a minion to be discarded, in and of itself, mean the minion must be "there" in the first place? When it can't be spotted, it's as if it isn't there.

Yes, it does need to be active ("there") in order to be discarded. However, if you were to have a dream card that stated "Minions may not be spotted in the manoeuvre phase" active already, it would mean that although the minion is still active, the spotting of it by any player (and only the spotting of it) would be impossible within the manoeuvre phase.

[MR. Lurtzy]

So, a new question then. Is there an inherent spotting of a minion if another card uses an ability on that minion?

[mardukra]

So, a new question then. Is there an inherent spotting of a minion if another card uses an ability on that minion?

Nope, spotting only takes place when a card says so.

[MR. Lurtzy]

Perhaps you are right, but it is still very weird that you can have a minion that can't be spotted, but still can be targetted.

[Kev-La]

Perhaps you are right, but it is still very weird that you can have a minion that can't be spotted, but still can be targetted.

I think what might be causing confusion here is that you are thinking of the card text as if it carried the same meaning as it would in normal English language. In the case of "spot", it most definitely does not.

[MR. Lurtzy]

Okay, well the same effect should be able to be achieved if the card is prevented from being targetted, right?

[Kev-La]

Okay, well the same effect should be able to be achieved if the card is prevented from being targetted, right?

Lets suppose there's already a card in play that states "Orcs may not be spotted in the manoeuvre phase". If a player then wishes to play a card with "Manoeuvre: Spot an Isengard Orc to discard a condition.", he cannot because the first card prevents him meeting its cost. However, he can play a card that states "Manoeuvre: Discard an Isengard Ord to discard a condition" because he does not need to spot the Orc to be able to discard it from play.

[ket_the_jet]

Why don't you make your dream card closer to the Phial of Galadriel, Star-Glass and just make it a transferrable condition that makes a minion lose gametext?
-wtk

[Elessar's Socks]

The term might be used for targeting (e.g. with Battle to the Last), but saying a card can't be spotted doesn't really affect anything beyond that. Take a Goblin Scimitar in the discard pile. It can't be spotted (not in play), but it can still be "targeted" by Relics of Moria.